Bible Jim

THE KILL ABORTION DOCTORS CULT

The wheels of God move extremely slow at times
but grind exceedingly fine.

Rom 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath {of God,} for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

B>DEAR BRUCE
First keep in mind I am for you and admire your ministry. But you have many times in the past made a point very closely resembling the quote below. I have been troubled by it and have decided to respond. I know your personal ministry is non-violent, yet you may be adding fuel to a fire within a person that should be put out. You have made statements, which are similar to the following:

If we believe that an unborn child is just as much a "person" in God's sight as a born person is, then the killing of a abortion doctor is DEFENSE, not "murder", not "retribution", not "taking the law into his own hands", not "vengeance".

To suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ has commissioned a ministry to individual Christians or to the corporate church to personally execute someone that is killing another or threatening to kill another [born or unborn] is biblically ridiculous and completely impractical.

The "Great Commission" of our Lord commands us to "teach" and "preach," not to become the physical defenders of any thing. The spiritual gifts in the Body of Christ and their purpose and guidelines are clearly proclaimed in the Bible (Romans 12:3-8; I Corinthians 12:1-31; Ephesians 4:11). None of them include the killing of anyone.

One of the many foundations for the cults and sects is to place "their will" above the will of Jesus Christ. Is Jesus not our Lord? Are not the Scriptures our standard?

Now, if someone is holding a gun to one of our loved ones, certainly, we would try to prevent them from causing any harm to them.

That is quite different than a pregnant woman going to a doctor because she wants to kill her own child. Is it practical to kill the doctor in the name of defending the unborn, merely, allowing the woman to drive across town to another doctor to accomplish her goal of killing her own child, as we go to death row?

NOT TOO SMART!

Jesus went to jail and was killed for His obedience to the Father, not for killing others. It was the Jewish hypocrites and the Roman pagans that chose the path of killing.
Follow Jesus! The example of Jesus and the clear declaration of Scripture is not one of going out and killing people that are killing others, born or unborn.

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We do see killing occurring in the OT by Israel and it’s leaders under the direction of God. But even at that God claimed personal responsibility.
Exod 23:7 "Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.

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We do have those that acted on their own behalf in the flesh recorded in the scriptures.

Gen 34:25 Now it came about on the third day, when they were in pain, that two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, each took his sword and came upon the city unawares, and killed every male.

Gen 49:5-7 "Simeon and Levi are brothers; their swords are implements of violence.
6 "Let my soul not enter into their council; let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they lamed oxen.
7 "Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; and their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

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We are in the New Covenant not the Old.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace,

Col 2:14-16 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us {and} which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day

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So, all the 'killing commands' given to the nation of Israel do not apply to the Church under the New Covenant.
Even a nation could exceed the teachings' of the New Testament to follow such commands; but clearly, no individual in the name of Jesus or Christianity has the right to practice or encourage others in practice of such, as killing homosexuals or disobedient children or witches or anyone else, apart from the government.

HAS THERE EVER BEEN AN ABORTION THAT GOD DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT?

1. Is He happy about them?
2. Neutral about them?
3. Mad about them?
4. Extremely upset about them?
5. Can He do anything about them?
6. Does He do anything about them?
7. Will He do anything about them?

The wheels of God move extremely slow at times but grind exceedingly fine.

Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay."

Rom 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath {of God,} for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

Nahum 1:2 A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; the LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies.

"Vengeance is Mine,….is Mine….is Mine….is Mine….NOT YOURS!!!

It’s not our responsibility to take action against wrong doers; it’s the Government's and ultimately GOD'S.

Rom 13:2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Rom 12:19-21
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath {of God,} for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
20 "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.
"21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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The example of Jesus the innocent one.

He spoke against violence, and warned of the outcome.

Matt 26:51-54 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"

He tried to defend Jesus and got rebuked!

Obviously defending the innocent with physical life threatening force is not God’s way for the members of the body of Christ as it wasn’t for Jesus and His followers.

1. Could God have stopped abortions, just as He could have stopped the crucifixion, if that was His will?

2. Should we play God and act where God could, but won’t?
3. Is our mission to Kill others, or preach the Gospel?

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A person’s salvation is based on their FAITH IN JESUS.
That’s the Gospel.
Not their position on abortion.

Gal 1:7which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

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What was Jesus’ Attitude and Position?

Matt 5:21-2221 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'

22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell.

Matt 5:38-4238 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 "And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matt 5:43-48 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you
45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?
47 "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more {than others} Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Except for rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ, from the beginning of time, there has probably not been a greater sin than abortion. The number of unborn children executed by women is mind boggling, which might even exceed the total number killed in all the wars. Because women are easily deceived and have rejected the blessing of God, they demand complete control of their wombs.

Ps 127:3-5
3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
Yet, even the great sin of abortion is not clearly condemned as murder anywhere in the Bible.
Maybe, this is because God looks at abortion as simply populating Heaven?
Or maybe, God looks at the unborn as the sand on the sea shore, dead by nature as a result of the 'fall' and good for nothing apart from the spirit-filled life?
Or maybe, to God, "a day is as a thousand years" and all will be dealt with in due time?

James 2:13 For judgment {will be} merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Regardless of the reason that God has not chosen to specially condemn abortion as murder, the Christian has no right to be judge, jury, and executioner.
KILLING IN THE NAME OF DEFENDING, GUNNING DOWN, FIGHTING BACK, IS NOT THE COURSE JESUS TOOK, OR THE APOSTLES, OR THE EARLY CHURCH, AGAINST THE ONES THAT WERE KILLING THEM, THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR FRIENDS.

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We have two examples in Scripture of men who were murderers before coming into covenant with God.
Neither one of their killings can set a precedent for any Christian personally killing, thousands of years later in our day.
Saul would persecute Christians, thinking that he was doing God a service by it, and Moses 2000 years before Paul and 40 years before the Old Covenant killed an Egyptian, thinking that he was serving God. We don't know too much about Paul's attitude when he did these killing, only that he was very zealous in it, thinking he was righteous at the time, but later he repented of it. With Moses, we know that he hid the body, and he also fled the land when he saw that the Israelites did not support his actions. These actions are consistent with a man who experiences guilt and knows that he did something wrong.
Obviously the future 'Law giver' realized that he had broken the Law.

After Moses comes into covenant with God, we see a very different heart. Whereas prior to his covenant with God he tried taking matters into his own hands, afterward he entrusts God with it. So the ground opens up and swallows up Korah and company (Numbers 16), and Moses intercedes for the sinner in a way that he asks God to blot his name out of the book if he will not forgive them (Ex. 32:32).

We also see that Paul's heart changed, so that he wrote for us to do good to enemies (contrary to the way he use to act toward those he considered enemies of God) and to return evil with good (Romans 12:20-21).
Acts 7:24-29
24 "And when he saw one {of them} being treated unjustly, he defended him and took vengeance for the oppressed by striking down the Egyptian.
25 "And he supposed that his brethren understood that God was granting them deliverance through him; but they did not understand.
26 "And on the following day he appeared to them as they were fighting together, and he tried to reconcile them in peace, saying, 'Men, you are brethren, why do you injure one another?'
27 "But the one who was injuring his neighbor pushed him away, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and judge over us?
28 'You do not mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday, do you?'
29 "And at this remark Moses fled, and became an alien in the land of Midian, where he became the father of two sons.

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ALSO NOTE:
The precedent was set from the beginning.
Gen 4:8 And Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
Gen 4:15 So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, lest anyone finding him should slay him.
Cain was guilty of killing his innocent brother Abel but God prohibited any individual from harming the guilty one.

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The carnal killers' use the power of fire arms.
The Spirit-filled believer puts on the whole armor of God:
Eph 6:10-18 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming missiles of the evil {one.}
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,(NASB)
Jim Webber
Bible quotes from (NAS)

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Dr. Patrick Johnston
Response to Bible Jim’s Letter to Bruce….

Brethren,

First, I think we all agree on this. Force, even lethal force, is indeed compatible with Christian charity. I don't think one of us would condemn a police officer or a soldier or a government-ordained executioner who employed lethal force in the line of duty. Correct? Even Ruben Israel praised the executioners of Paul Hill in Florida recently, so on this we ALL should agree: lethal force is not inconsistent with Christian charity. So drop the nonsense that lethal violence is never justifiable.

Furthermore, I think we all agree with this as well: Not only government agents, but also ordinary citizens may also employ lethal force consistent with Christian charity. We ALL, I think, agree with this. I don't think one of us would condemn those Americans who attacked the terrorists on Flight 93 on 9/11/01, and kept it from striking a strategic D.C. target. I don't think one of us would protest an ordinary law-abiding Christian citizen who used lethal force to stop a mass murderer from shooting up kids in the mall with a semi-automatic weapon. I think we all, Christians and non-Christians, pro-lifers and pro-choicers, pro-life activists and pro-life inactivists, pacifists and non-pacifists, we would all praise these people as heroes.

Furthermore, I think we all agree with this as well: I don't think one of us would necessarily condemn an ordinary citizen who employed lethal force to stop an abortionist from killing innocent human beings. NOT ONE OF US! Not Ruben Chavez, not Jim Webber, not Jed Smock, not Robert Borer, not Britt Williams, not David Miller, not Ron McRae - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - not one of you fine brethren would necessarily condemn an ordinary citizen who employed lethal force to stop an abortionist from killing innocent human beings... as long as the abortionist was killing already-born-people. If an abortionist was shooting up kids at the mall, for instance, with an semi-automatic weapon, not one of us would condemn the ordinary citizen who used lethal force to stop him. Would any of you? I don't think you honestly would. Neither would our government. Nor our God. We would call this lethal defensive force "justifiable homicide".

The question is: why this discrimination against the preborn? The Bible is clear that people in the womb are alive and fully human - they are judicially innocent of any capital crimes. Would any honest students of Scripture deny this? Why does our government, and why do so many of you condemn the one who would use lethal force to stop the abortionist from killing innocent human beings in the womb when you would not condemn one who would use lethal force to stop the abortionist from killing innocent human beings in the mall? Why this discrimination against the preborn?

"If ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin." (James 2:9)

Dr. Patrick Johnston

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Bible Jim responses to Dr. Patrick Johnson

Can we all agree that if a person talks the talk he should walk the walk?

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Can we all agree the one that incites others to do the very dirty work he is not willing to do is nothing more than a puffed up intellectual hypocrite. Lording over others with intellectual pride and persuasive speech amounts to nothing more than a modern day Pharisee.

Matt 23:28 "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

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Can we all agree that two wrongs don’t make a right?

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Can we all agree that if Dr. Patrick Johnston is right “Force, even lethal force, is indeed compatible with Christian charity.” Then we have the right to ask him and others like him where was their charity and lethal force when it came to protecting Paul Hill. You would think the way they encourage and incite others they would have showed up at the prison with guns to protect the innocent so called prophet Paul Hill from being murdered by the what they say is the corrupt evil government they pay taxes to and feed off all the benefits it offers the roads, heath care, social security benefits etc. But my sources tell me the good Dr. Patrick was nowhere to be found, neither were Bruce Murch and Paul Deparrie.

Can we agree this appears to be nothing more than hypocrisy?

Can we all agree that surely if God told Dr. Patrick, Bruce Murch or Paul Deparrie to do what they are encouraging others to do, they would do it; I mean protect an innocent unborn baby by killing an abortion doctor.

Now I am sure we can all agree if God has not told Doc, Bruce or Paul to protect an innocent unborn baby by killing an abortion doctor, God must have a good reason.

Can we all agree that if the Bible teaches to protect the innocent unborn Babies by killing, the abortion doctor’s, Doc, Bruce, and Paul would kill abortion doctors, since they are encouraging others to do so unless they are all gutless wonders-hypocrites.

Can we all agree that with the massive number of abortions since the early seventies that if God was telling people to kill the abortion doctors that are killing the innocent unborn babies there would be far more doctors dead.

Can we all agree that if the good Dr. Patrick is right that there is no difference in the implementing lethal force to protect the unborn as well as the born is charity?

It seems again we would have the right to ask the mouths that are encouraging and inciting others. What have they done personally to save the lives of the innocent dying of starvation in many countries around the world. Or have they ever been a mercenary out to protect the innocent from the massive killing of innocent ones around the world. It seems the only thing that would stand in the way of your lethal charity in these cases is simply a plane ticket, a gun and some guts.

I am sure we can all agree if the unborn are truly innocent, then they will all go to Heaven. And the Abortion Doctors are truly doing most of them a favor killing them otherwise they would go to eternal Hell. (NOTE: READ BIBLE JIM’S SECTION ON DEPRAVITY}

I am sure we can all agree that the Physical Death of the unborn knowing they will all go to Heaven can’t be compare to the Eternal Spiritual Murders of the majority of all people on earth doomed to eternal Hell as a result of being deceived by those that pass themselves off as being wise and or Gods representatives, surely that is a far greater crime then aborting babies to heaven. And the numbers doomed to Hell each year in America is far greater than the aborted babies on their way to Heaven each year in America.

And I am sure we can all agree that applying the good Dr. Patrick Johnson’s reasoning, “lethal force, is indeed compatible with Christian charity.” deceiving the mass into eternal Hell would far outweigh just killing the physical body of the unborn insuring them a place in Heaven.

Therefore I am sure we can agree it only makes good sense that if a Buddha or Hindu leader is deceiving innocent people into a eternal Hell the charity of lethal force would be justified, particularly since we have many Bible verses addressing the subject.

Deut 7:24-26 24 "And He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you shall make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them.
25 "The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, lest you be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God.
26 "And you shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned.

Exod 22:20-24 20 "He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.

Deut 13:13-15 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom you have not known),
14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. And if it is true {and} the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,
15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword.

Also I am sure we can agree it only makes good sense that if a Muslim or Mormon or JW leader is deceiving innocent people into an eternal Hell the charity of lethal force would be justified, particularly since we have Bible verses addressing the subject. If Doc is right.

Deut 18:20'But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'

Also I am sure we can agree it only makes good sense that a Calvinist should kill the Armenians and the Armenians should kill the Calvinist, and both should kill all the easy believers.

I am sure we should all agree that if Dr. Patrick Johnson’s reasoning, “lethal force, is indeed compatible with Christian charity,” then Preaching on College Campus should be terminated till we out of charity use lethal force on all the Professors that are deceiving all the students always from God into eternal Hell Fire.

I am sure we can all agree we should all start with the ones in our hometowns if Doc Johnson is right.

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Human reasoning is not always divine reasoning.

I am sure we can all agree that’s why Jesus said:
Matt 5:43-44 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you”

Jesus also said,
Matthew 5:39 (39) "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

And Paul said,
Romans 12:17-21 (17) Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
(18) If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
(19) Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
(20) "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."
(21)Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jim Webber
Bible verse from NASB

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David Miller

No. Even if the shooter was a police officer, it would not be justified. When was the last time you heard of a police officer going up to a criminal in a car and blowing him away without warning?

The Scriptures teach us to turn the other cheek (Mat. 5), and it teaches us that government is the sword of God (Rom. 13). If we were to allow people to go around and prevent murders by killing the would-be murderers before they were able to strike, we would be opening up Pandora’s box for chaos and disorder in society.

Obviously we excuse cases of imminent danger, such as attacking the Islamic hijackers who were in the act, but what Paul Hill did would be like shooting the hijackers in the parking lot before they even went inside the airport. We cannot allow that kind of behavior.

And even in the justifiable cases, there is a higher calling and a higher way: true martyrdom. True martyrdom, incidentally, is not being executed by the government because you killed someone. None of the prophets and apostles who were executed in Scripture or church history suffered such as a murderer. They suffered because of their testimony, not for being a murderer.

Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

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Steven Keeler

LET ME ALSO ADD.....According to Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius: TIBERIUS (who was Caesar during Christ's entire ministry; Luke 3:1) would have pool parties with small boys and even infants where he would engage in perverted sex with them. At no time did Christ dispatch his disciples to 'take Tiberius out' and protect those little children. And many of the emperors during the time of the Apostles were bloody murderers, torturing and torching Christians, and even ABORTIONS were going on, from Nero to Domitian....but nowhere do we find Apostolic death squads assassinating these monsters. Not once did the Acts of the Apostles even mention burning down a temple of Zeus or Bacchus. With all the monstrous decadence of the Roman empire we can still find no New Testament justification for acts of violence. What we do find is PREACHING, rebuking, exhorting.

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YOU MAY NOTICE....

that NO ONE in the NEW TESTAMENT,
not JESUS
nor John the Baptist
nor Peter
nor Paul
nor any of the 12
nor any members of the churches as Corinth, Rome, Philippi, etc., etc....
NONE of them got "the call" to be Ehuds or Phinehases.
When the Caesars were forcing people to worship them as gods NOT ONE Christian took a shot at any of them.....because they were obviously not operating under an Old Testament agenda. THERE IS NO NEW TESTAMENT JUSTIFICATION FOR PAUL HILLS. If you see any, then produce it.

ADRIAN:
THERE ARE NO EXAMPLES IN THE BIBLE OR HISTORY OF ANY OF THE APOSTLES WIVES OR CHILDREN NEEDING DEFENDING....SOME THINGS JUST DON'T COME UP IN THE BIBLE.
BUT THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES THAT WE KNOW OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE KILLING CHRISTIANS, BLASPHEMING, PRACTISING SEXUAL PERVERSION, AND ABORTIONS....AND NEVER IS THE NEW TESTAMENT RESPONSE TO PERFORM ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
IN FACT WE SEE THE OPPOSITE CLEARLY TAUGHT (LUKE 9:54-56; JOHN 18:36; 2 CORINTHIANS 10:4).