#1. Does time exist within the nature of God? No, the reason being, God has no beginning or end. Time always has a starting point. God is in the present tense, state of being. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Either something is eternal by natural or something non-eternal emerged from nothing. The point is, from nothing, nothing comes. Therefore we are left with only one intelligent choice, there is something that is eternal, which we call God. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Exod 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Ps 90:2 Before the mountains were born, or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God. 1 Tim 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him {be} honor and eternal dominion! Amen. 2 Pet 3:8 But do not let this one {fact} escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Any thing that has a starting point or a beginning is finite and can be measured by time. Therefore since God had no beginning or starting point God cannot be measured by time. Time does not exist within His Nature. In saying this, I am not saying within Gods Nature there is No action. But any action God has within His Nature cannot be measured by time. (Note: I make a distinction between Gods' Nature and Gods' Creation.} God has the ability to create or start something. That which He starts can be measured by time, and He has the ability to relate to His Creation, but it should be understood the Creation is not the same as the Creator. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE {God cannot, not exist} A. God does not learn. B. Learning requires obtaining knowledge. C. The presupposition of learning, is not knowing. D. God knows all that can be known. Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. I Jn 3:20 .for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. E. Gods knowing has no need for time. Yet in personally relating to the finite { His Creation} He relates to them in terms they can relate to. F. God can be in two different places simultaneously. God can be in Heaven and on Earth. God can be dwelling personally in each believer but also be our advocate in Heaven simultaneously. G. God can create by his very word, it's easy for him. Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Keep in mind: Understand, the Universe alone is incredible. Astronomers commonly represent distance in terms of megaparsecs, where the megaparsecs is the distance light travels in 3.26 million years. The speed of light is 186,282.396 miles per sec. A typical galaxy has a distance across of 50 megaparsecs but could be 500 megaparsecs or more, and has hundreds of millions of stars. There are thousands of Galaxies. In other words, it's Big out there. God is Powerful. I Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain Thee, how much less this house which I have built! BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Picture this finite example: The outer arrows represent Gods infinite timeless all encompassing state of being. The center black circle represents His creations. Since He is all encompassing around His creation passed, present, and future from every direction, nothing that either Happens or is knowable is beyond him. Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Diagram #1260 Note: The Black Circle in the center of diagram #1260, represents the Universe, the "Heaven" and "Heavens". In short it represent everything that God has created. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it, Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE { You might find it interesting on your internet search engine to check out "dark matter' and "dark energy".} BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. { You might find it interesting on your internet search engine to check out "dark matter' and "dark energy".} In conclusion, diagram #1260 represents God as being far more than His creations as 1Kings 8:27 represents. I Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain Thee, BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE God is eternal, always in the present Now. In other words on Earth if an event occurs at 3:00 pm, God is present at 2:00 pm and 4:00 pm simultaneously with the 3:00 pm event. Nothing escapes God or catches Him by surprise. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE God has the ability to co-exist within His creation and be removed from it Simultaneously. Obviously my best attempt to address these most important issues will fall short, yet to ignore them opens the door to confusion and mis representation of the very nature of God and His creation. Regardless of any ones attempt to address these issues, the acid test is what kind of a God do you come up with, an infinite God, or a finite God? BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #2. Does God change? No. Change requires moving from one point to another, which requires time. God is timeless. God does not change. Mal 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ {is} the same yesterday and today, {yes} and forever. James 1:17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. Ps 102:27 "But Thou art the same, and Thy years will not come to an end. Heb 1:12 And as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; as a garment they will also be changed. But Thou art the same, and Thy years will not come to an end. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE God has created Gen 1, His creation has a starting point therefore can be measured by time and changing events. God's essence does not change as a result of Him creating. Though change exists as a result of Him creating . God can create a tree, but that does not mean He is the tree. Yet, the tree does not exist apart from the presence of God. It is very difficult for the finite to understand the infinite. With this understanding we will use some finite examples. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Example A .Shows how God may appear to change but does not change. I Jn 1:5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Think of a stage production that has many different scenes. One scene may be bright and one might be dark, one may even be reddish or even bluish. How that is accomplished is by inserting different colored jells in front of the bright lights. So as a result, for example: if all that were inserted in front of the lights were red jells, everything on the stage would appear to be red, yet the nature of the lights would not have changed at all, only the effect, as a result of the jells. With this understanding, when God's light shines on Sin we see Wrath but when Gods light shines on Righteousness we see Favor, yet God has not changed. The same light is shining in both cases, yet the effect is totally different. Example BBASIC THEOLOGY - RYRIE pg.38 In the unfolding revelation of God's plan there seems to be change. However this can be said to be only from the human viewpoint, for His eternal plan is unchanging as is He. Example C LECTURES IN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY - THIESSEN pg.128 Some seem to hold that because God is immutable He cannot act. We know, however, that He is immutable and also acts; and so the two must be compatible. In this way: God's immutability is not like that of a stone that does not respond to changes about it, but like that of a column of mercury which rises and falls according as the temperature changes. Note: The reason our understanding on these matter is so very important is that some are attempting to undermine the Nature of God by making God finite. Attempting to undermine many verses like. Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. They attempt to use verses like "God repented", to show Gods Knowledge and understanding is limited and not infinite. In doing this they undermine Gods Power, Knowledge, Presents, and Unchanging Nature. Surely there are thing about the Scriptures that are hard to understand. But in our attempt to understand them, we should not take away from the well established attributes of God, to reconcile apparent problems we have in our understanding. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Now, someone may ask, if God is in the "Now, Always", and does not change, why does the Bible say God Repents? This is an extremely important question to understand the answer to. 1 Sam 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. Exod 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. How is this apparent paradox explained? BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Example D WHEN CRITICS ASK - GEISLER HOWE pg. 86-87 It may simply be the case that, since the circumstances have changed, God's relationship to the new circumstances are different because they have changed, not God. Gods attitude toward sin is always anger, and His attitude toward those who call to Him is always an attitude of mercy. Before Moses prayed for Israel, they were under God's judgment. But Moses' intercession for the people of Israel, he brought them under Gods mercy. God did not change. Rather, the circumstances changed. The language used in this passage is called anthroporphic, or man-centered, language. It is similar to someone moving from one place to another and saying, "Now the house is on my right," "Now the house is on my left." Neither of these statements is meant to imply that the house has moved. Rather, it is language from a human perspective to describe that I have changed my position in relationship to the house. When Moses said that God relented, it was a figurative way of describing that Mose's intercession successfully changed the relationship of the people to God. He brought the nation under the mercy of God's grace, and out of from under the judgment of God. God does not change, neither His mind , His will, nor His nature. Example E . Shows how all Gods actions are governed by His constant unchanging character. The differences between God and mankind are far more than that of Parents and their children. Yet I believe some of the same principles may apply. For example: If within the structure of the family unit, children's good behavior results in a positive perspective toward the children and very possibly rewards, where as bad behavior results in attitudes of dissatisfaction and punishment. Consider this... A Mother and Father inform their children they are taking a trip to the Zoo next week, Yet within days the children mis-behave and the Mother and Father inform the children the trip is off, as a result of the children's behavior. The question is, has the Mother and Father changed their mind? No! Simple because the original trip to the Zoo was contingent upon the behavior of the children. The family policy was, good behavior merits rewards, bad behavior punishment. Therefore if in fact the children were to mis-behave and Yet the Parents were to take the children to the Zoo anyway, then we would see Change on the Parents part. Some may say, the parents have changed their minds. In doing so they would be ignoring context. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Sticking with this same kind of thinking, to make another point, consider a parent after finding a child in a wrong doing, making a statement to the child like this, "now just what am I to do, with You?". The fact the parent asks the question, does that mean the parent does not know what to do? Obviously not. Is it hard for us to consider God dealing with us in similar ways. INTERNATION STANDARD BIBLE ENCYLOPEDIA It is true that the Scripture makes use of anthropomorphic forms of expression as regards the way in which God obtains knowledge , and sometimes even represents Him as if He did not know certain things ; nevertheless the constant representation of the Scripture is that God knows everything. Example F . Picture yourself sitting in a chair, sitting still, not moving. If I were to see you, you would appear to be motionless. Yet, blood is flowing through your veins, and many thing are Moving within you, your heart is beating, yet you are not moving but sitting motionless. Also within your mind you could be thinking about any numbers Of things. You could even be dreaming, relating in your mind pictures That appear to be real and transcends the moments in the chair to even days or weeks of experiences, yet you are not moving but sitting motionless. Systematic Theology, CHAFER pg.217 In no sphere or relationship is God subject to change. He could not be less than He is, and, since He filleth all things, He could not be more than He is. He could be removed from no place, nor is His knowledge or holiness subject to change. Systematic Theology, CHAFER,. Dr. Miley, pg.218God's unchanging holiness requires him to treat the wicked differently from the righteous. When the righteous become wicked his treatment of them must change. The sun is not fickle or partial because it melts the wax but hardens the clay,----the change is not the sun but in the object it shines upon. Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Elwell, pg.453 Hence, although speaking in terms of human experience God is sometimes said in Scripture to repent, it is in fact the unrepentant who have changed and become repentant or the faithful who have become unfaithful. Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Norman L, Geisler pg 288 God does not change His Mind. Neither can God's will be changed, for God's will is in perfect accord with his knowledge. He is omniscient, so what he knows will be will be. Therefore, God's will is unchangeable. This does not mean that God does not will that some things change. But God's will does not change, even though he does will that other things change. When the Bible speaks of God "repenting," it means that from where we stand it looks as if he has changed his mind. God knew from eternity how it would fall out, And God's will includes intermediate causes, such as human free will. So God knows what the intermediate causes will choose to do. And God's will is in accord with his unchangeable knowledge. Therefore, God's will never changes, since he wills what he knows will happen. What is willed by conditional necessity does not violate human freedom, since what is willed is conditioned on their freely choosing it. God wills the salvation of human beings conditionally. Therefore, God's will to salvation does not violate human free choice, but uses it. Note: The fact the Bible uses the term REPENT in references to Gods should not be taken to confuse the unchanging character of God but to envasize the fallibility of Man. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #3. Does chance exist within the nature of God? No. Chance by its nature, limits knowledge, therefore chance Cannot exist within Gods nature. In flipping a coin if you new if it was face up or face down you new the density of the atmosphere, the amount of force that is exerted by the flip, the number of revolutions the coin will make, where it will be caught, whether the coin will be turned over after it is caught, there would be no chance evolved. Further more if it always is flip in the same way under the same conditions it will always come up the same. You do not have the knowledge needed to know how it will end up, but it's not chance it is simply ignorance on your part. Yet God knows, therefore there is no chance for chance with God, it doses not exist. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE NOT A CHANCE - RC SPROUL, pg.3 "If chance exists in any size, shape, or form, God cannot exist." BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #4. Points #1+2+3 = Foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is the knowledge of all within the sphere of God, which is, all within all. The word Foreknowledge is a misnomer, since there is no future with God. Foreknowledge does not mean control. God can create an ant and know it is going to walk, but when it walks, that doesn't mean God is taking each step. INTERNATION STANDARD BIBLE ENCYLOPEDIAHe knows beforehand what Abraham will do, and what will happen to him; He knows beforehand that Pharaoh's heart will be hardened, and that Moses will deliver Israel ( ff; ff). The entire history of the patriarchal period of revelation exhibits plainly the foreknowledge of God in this sense. In prophecy this aspect of the Divine knowledge is made the subject of explicit assertion, and its religious significance is brought out. Nothing future is hidden from Yahweh ( ff; <42:9; 43:9-13; 44:6-8; 46:10; Dan 2:22; Amos 3:7>), and this foreknowledge embraces the entire course of man's life ( (16 in Heb); <39:5> (6 in Heb); <139:4-6,16; Job 14:5>). Jesus taught that God knows the hidden secrets of man's heart ; and this is also the teaching of the apostles . Isa 46:9-10 9 "Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Ps 139:4 4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, O LORD, Thou dost know it all. Isa 65:24 24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Note: The black circle in the center of diagram #1260, draw a time line in any direction within the black circle and ask yourself what part or time, escapes the presents of God? Answer: None, no place, no one can escape the presents of God at any time. Isa 42:8-9 8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images. 9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim {them} to you." INTERNATION STANDARD BIBLE ENCYLOPEDIA Since He is free from all limits of space, His omniscience is frequently connected with His omnipresence. INTERNATION STANDARD BIBLE ENCYLOPEDIAHence, God knows in one eternal intuition that which for the human consciousness is past, present and future. In a strict sense, therefore, there can be no foreknowledge or prescience with God, and the distinction in God's knowledge made by theologians, as knowledge of reminiscence, vision and prescience, is after all an anthropomorphism. Nevertheless this is the only way in which we can conceive of the Divine omniscience in its relation to time, and consequently the Scripture represents the matter as if God's knowledge of future events were a foreknowledge or prescience, and God is represented as knowing the past, present and future. Ps 139:7-12 7 Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, 10 Even there Thy hand will lead me, and Thy right hand will lay hold of me. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, and the light around me will be night," 12 Even the darkness is not dark to Thee, and the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike {to Thee.} Jer 23:23-24 23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD. Acts 17:27-28 27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His offspring.' Acts 2:23 23 this {Man} delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death. Rom 8:28-29 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; Rom 11:2 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in {the passage about} Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 1 Pet 1:2 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. Acts 15:18 18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Frames We see one frame at a time. God sees the whole picture at once. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #5. Does God control the choices people make? NO 2 Pet 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Rom 10:13 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #6. Does God elect people onto salvation? Yes Election is based upon Gods foreknowledge of peoples Faith. II Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Mark 13:20 "And unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect whom He chose, He shortened the days. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE #7. Does God predestinate? Yes Gods Predestination, is based upon Gods Foreknowledge. Rom 8:29-30 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE Note: Keep in mind that in the cases where scriptures point to certain things, that are hard to understand, such as the God Head, "Trinity", We don't reject what the scriptures are pointing to because it doesn't make sense to us, "the finite". Or that We, "the finite" do not understand how it could be possible. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE 2 Tim 1:9 9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 2 Tim 1:9 9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF EVENTS MAY MEAN NOTHING TO ETERNITY. MAKING ALL THE ARGUING AND SEPARATIONS OVER SUCH RIDICULOUS. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE DAVID MILLERS: I haven't really done a good study on this subject myself. I will say that your paper here does prod questions and provide some provocation toward further study. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE DAVID MILLERS SUGGESTIONS Perhaps you should end it with a list of passages that the reader can apply your points toward. For example, list the verses that suggest God can change or repent so the user can see how your view fits in all of them. Or, maybe come up with a half dozen though provoking questions. What I guess I am trying to get at is that you could end this paper a little better. It seems to just drop off. Gen 1:31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, Repented = This is how I respond to this situation, and this how I will respond to that. Nothing has change with God. God did not change, but circumstance did. He always continually to have pleasure in Righteousness and Sorrow over sin. Man enters and exits his domain.